HERNÍ MECHANIKY
Mgr. Tomáš Bártek
FMK UTB 28. března 2012
CO JSOU HERNÍ MECHANIKY?
 „Herní mechaniky jsou konstrukty pravidel
zaměřené na produkci zábavného herního zážitku“
(wiki)
 Interakce a vztahy, které zůstanou, když
odstraníme veškerou estetiku, technologii a příběh
(Jesse Schell)
 „Herní mechaniky jsou metody vyvolávané agenty,
designované pro interakci s herním stavem.“
(Sicart, gamestudies.org)
CO JSOU HERNÍ MECHANIKY?
MDA FRAMEWORK
 Základní prvky interakce
 Pravidla hry vyjádřené algoritmy proudícími herní
enginem
 Nejsou samy o sobě účinné, musejí být uvedeny do
pohybu
MDA FRAMEWORK (HUNICKE, LEBLANC,
ZUBEK)
 Mechanics-Dynamics-Aesthetics
MDA FRAMEWORK
MDA FRAMEWORK
 Mechanics – popisují jednotlive komponenty hry
(někdy taky zaměnovaná za pravidla)
 Dynamics – chování a výsledky mechanik na
podněty hráče. (příklad karet)
 Aestetics – toužené emoční odezvy hráče při
interakci s herním systémem (cílem je „zábava“)
 Hra je podle autorů uzavřený systém předem
definovaných mechanik, které se hráčovým
konáním uvádí do pohybu, a vytváří tak dynamiku
hry, která v hráčích následně vyvolává pocity¨.
 MDA tedy lze použít jako optiku pro vnímání her
MDA FRAMEWORK
 Designér a hráč mají rozdílné perspektivy
 Je důležité při tvorbě hry mít na zřeteli obě
perspektivy.
 Feature-driven design vs experience-driven design
(feature jako herní prvek)
MDA AESTHETICS
 Co je „zábava“?
 Jak je možno ji definovat?
 Existuje jeden druh zábavy?
 Baví nás stejně thriller jako soap opera, sitcom?
MDA AESTHETICS
 Estetikou je míněn herní zážitek. Jsou to pocity,
které hra v hráči vyvolává.
 Na základě těchto pocitů se potom hráč rozhoduje,
jak bude hrát dál, aby zážitek z hraní zlepšil.
 Rovněž tyto pocity rozhodují o úspěšnosti přijetí
hry.
MDA AESTHETICS ZÁBAVA
 Sensation – potěšení a stimulace smyslů
 Fantasy – radost z vytváření a naplňování snů a
nápadů
 Narrative – radost z odhalování příběhů
 Challenge – radost z překonávání překážek a výzev
 Fellowship – radost z hraní s ostatními lidmi, pocit
sounáležitosti
 Discovery – radost z objevování nových míst a věcí
 Expression – radost z možnosti sebevyjádření
 Submission – nechat se obklopit a unášet hrou
MDA ZÁBAVA
 Každá hra může mít více druhů zábavy, ale také je
důležitý jejich poměr a vzájemný vztah
 Šachy: Fellowship, Expression, Challenge
 Quake: Challenge, Sensation, Fantasy
 Battlefield 3: Challenge, Fellowship
 The Sims: Discovery, Fantasy, Expression,
Narrative
 Final Fantasy: Fantasy, Narrative, Expression,
Discovery, Challenge, Submission.
 Každý z těchto druhů zábavy se vynucuje jinou
dynamikou a tudiž i jinou mechanikcou
 Např. Fellowship může být dosaženo sdílením
informací mezi hráči, nebo navrhnutím podmínek
vítězství, kterých nelze dosáhnout samotnému
hráči
 Challenge se zvyšuje zvyšováním tlaku na hráče
(ubíhající čas, lepší AI nepřátel, omezené zdroje)
MDA FRAMEWORK – BALANCOVÁNÍ
 Mechanika:
hrací plán s
poli, hody
kostkou, 1.
pole
 Dynamika a
estetika: ?
HRA NA SCHOVÁVANOU
Zkuste navrhnout digitální hru na schovávanou pro:
 Děti 3-7 let
 Dívky 7-12 let
 Muži 14-35 let
 Jak se budou ty hry lišit?
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 SCVNGR vyrábí hry na mobilní zařízení s „real-life
challenges“
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 1. Achievement
 Definition: A virtual or physical representation of having accomplished
something. These are often viewed as rewards in and of themselves.
 Example: a badge, a level, a reward, points, really anything defined as a
reward can be a reward.
 2. Appointment Dynamic
 Definition: A dynamic in which to succeed, one must return at a
predefined time to take some action. Appointment dynamics are often
deeply related to interval based reward schedules or avoidance
dyanmics.
 Example: Cafe World and Farmville where if you return at a set time to
do something you get something good, and if you don’t something bad
happens.
 3. Avoidance
 Definition: The act of inducing player behavior not by giving a reward,
but by not instituting a punishment. Produces consistent level of activity,
timed around the schedule.
 Example: Press a lever every 30 seconds to not get shocked.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 4. Behavioral Contrast
 Definition: The theory defining how behavior can shift greatly based on changed expectations.
 Example: A monkey presses a lever and is given lettuce. The monkey is happy and continues
to press the lever. Then it gets a grape one time. The monkey is delighted. The next time it
presses the lever it gets lettuce again. Rather than being happy, as it was before, it goes
ballistic throwing the lettuce at the experimenter. (In some experiments, a second monkey is
placed in the cage, but tied to a rope so it can’t access the lettuce or lever. After the grape
reward is removed, the first monkey beats up the second monkey even though it obviously had
nothing to do with the removal. The anger is truly irrational.)
 5. Behavioral Momentum
 Definition: The tendency of players to keep doing what they have been doing.
 Example: From Jesse Schell’s awesome Dice talk: “I have spent ten hours playing Farmville. I
am a smart person and wouldn’t spend 10 hours on something unless it was useful. Therefore
this must be useful, so I can keep doing it.”
 6. Blissful Productivity
 Definition: The idea that playing in a game makes you happier working hard, than you would
be relaxing. Essentially, we’re optimized as human beings by working hard, and doing
meaningful and rewarding work.
 Example: From Jane McGonical’s Ted Talk wherein she discusses how World of Warcraft
players play on average 22 hours / week (a part time job), often after a full days work. They’re
willing to work hard, perhaps harder than in real life, because of their blissful productivity in the
game world.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 7. Cascading Information Theory
 Definition: The theory that information should be released in the
minimum possible snippets to gain the appropriate level of understanding
at each point during a game narrative.
 Example: showing basic actions first, unlocking more as you progress
through levels. Making building on SCVNGR a simple but staged
process to avoid information overload.
 8. Chain Schedules
 Definition: the practice of linking a reward to a series of contingencies.
Players tend to treat these as simply the individual contingencies.
Unlocking one step in the contingency is often viewed as an individual
reward by the player.
 Example: Kill 10 orcs to get into the dragons cave, every 30 minutes the
dragon appears.
 9. Communal Discovery
 Definition: The game dynamic wherein an entire community is rallied to
work together to solve a riddle, a problem or a challenge. Immensely
viral and very fun.
 Example: DARPA balloon challenge, the cottage industries that appear
around McDonalds monopoly to find “Boardwalk”
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 10. Companion Gaming
 Definition: Games that can be played across multiple
platforms
 Example: Games that be played on iphone, facebook, xbox
with completely seamless cross platform gameplay.
 11. Contingency
 Definition: The problem that the player must overcome in the
three part paradigm of reward schedules.
 Example: 10 orcs block your path
 12. Countdown
 Definition: The dynamic in which players are only given a
certain amount of time to do something. This will create an
activity graph that causes increased initial activity increasing
frenetically until time runs out, which is a forced extinction.
 Example: Bejeweled Blitz with 30 seconds to get as many
points as you can. Bonus rounds. Timed levels
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 13. Cross Situational Leader-boards
 Definition: This occurs when one ranking mechanism is applied across
multiple (unequal and isolated) gaming scenarios. Players often perceive
that these ranking scenarios are unfair as not all players were presented
with an “equal” opportunity to win.
 Example: Players are arbitrarily sent into one of three paths. The winner
is determined by the top scorer overall (i.e. across the paths). Since the
players can only do one path (and can’t pick), they will perceive inequity
in the game scenario and get upset.
 14. Disincentives
 Definition: a game element that uses a penalty (or altered situation) to
induce behavioral shift
 Example: losing health points, amazon’s checkout line removing all links
to tunnel the buyer to purchase, speeding traps
 15. Endless Games
 Definition: Games that do not have an explicit end. Most applicable to
casual games that can refresh their content or games where a static (but
positive) state is a reward of its own.
 Example: Farmville (static state is its own victory), SCVNGR (challenges
constantly are being built by the community to refresh content)
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 16. Envy
 Definition: The desire to have what others have. In order for this to be
effective seeing what other people have (voyeurism) must be employed.
 Example: my friend has this item and I want it!
 17. Epic Meaning
 Definition: players will be highly motivated if they believe they are
working to achieve something great, something awe-inspiring, something
bigger than themselves.
 Example: From Jane McGonical’s Ted Talk where she discusses
Warcraft’s ongoing story line and “epic meaning” that involves each
individual has motivated players to participate outside the game and
create the second largest wiki in the world to help them achieve their
individual quests and collectively their epic meanings.
 18. Extinction
 Definition: Extinction is the term used to refer to the action of stopping
providing a reward. This tends to create anger in players as they feel
betrayed by no longer receiving the reward they have come to expect. It
generally induces negative behavioral momentum.
 Example: killing 10 orcs no longer gets you a level up
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 19. Fixed Interval Reward Schedules
 Definition: Fixed interval schedules provide a reward after a fixed amount of time,
say 30 minutes. This tends to create a low engagement after a reward, and then
gradually increasing activity until a reward is given, followed by another lull in
engagement.
 Example: Farmville, wait 30 minutes, crops have appeared
 20. Fixed Ratio Reward Schedule
 Definition: A fixed ratio schedule provides rewards after a fixed number of actions.
This creates cyclical nadirs of engagement (because the first action will not create
any reward so incentive is low) and then bursts of activity as the reward gets closer
and closer.
 Example: kill 20 ships, get a level up, visit five locations, get a badge
 21. Free Lunch
 Definition: A dynamic in which a player feels that they are getting something for
free due to someone else having done work. It’s critical that work is perceived to
have been done (just not by the player in question) to avoid breaching trust in the
scenario. The player must feel that they’ve “lucked” into something.
 Example: Groupon. By virtue of 100 other people having bought the deal, you get
it for cheap. There is no sketchiness b/c you recognize work has been done (100
people are spending money) but you yourself didn’t have to do it.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 22. Fun Once, Fun Always
 Definition: The concept that an action in enjoyable to repeat all
the time. Generally this has to do with simple actions. There is
often also a limitation to the total level of enjoyment of the action.
 Example: the theory behind the check-in everywhere and the
check-in and the default challenges on SCVNGR.
 23. Interval Reward Schedules
 Definition: Interval based reward schedules provide a reward
after a certain amount of time. There are two flavors: variable and
fixed.
 Example: wait N minutes, collect rent
 24. Lottery
 Definition: A game dynamic in which the winner is determined
solely by chance. This creates a high level of anticipation. The
fairness is often suspect, however winners will generally continue
to play indefinitely while losers will quickly abandon the game,
despite the random nature of the distinction between the two.
 Example: many forms of gambling, scratch tickets.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 25. Loyalty
 Definition: The concept of feeling a positive sustained connection to an entity
leading to a feeling of partial ownership. Often reinforced with a visual
representation.
 Example: fealty in WOW, achieving status at physical places (mayorship, being on
the wall of favorite customers)
 26. Meta Game
 Definition: a game which exists layered within another game. These generally are
discovered rather than explained (lest they cause confusion) and tend to appeal to
~2% of the total gameplaying audience. They are dangerous as they can induce
confusion (if made too overt) but are powerful as they’re greatly satisfying to those
who find them.
 Example: hidden questions / achievements within world of warcraft that require
you to do special (and hard to discover) activities as you go through other quests
 27. Micro Leader-boards
 Definition: The rankings of all individuals in a micro-set. Often great for distributed
game dynamics where you want many micro-competitions or desire to induce
loyalty.
 Example: Be the top scorers at Joe’s bar this week and get a free appetizer
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 28. Modifiers
 Definition: An item that when used affects other actions. Generally modifiers are
earned after having completed a series of challenges or core functions.
 Example: A X2 modifier that doubles the points on the next action you take.
 29. Moral Hazard of Game Play
 Definition: The risk that by rewarding people manipulatively in a game you remove
the actual moral value of the action and replace it with an ersatz game-based
reward. The risk that by providing too many incentives to take an action, the
incentive of actually enjoying the action taken is lost. The corollary to this is that if
the points or rewards are taken away, then the person loses all motivation to take
the (initially fun on its own) action.
 Example: Paraphrased from Jesse Schell “If I give you points every time you
brush your teeth, you’ll stop brushing your teeth b/c it’s good for you and then only
do it for the points. If the points stop flowing, your teeth will decay.”
 30. Ownership
 Definition: The act of controlling something, having it be *your* property.
 Example: Ownership is interesting on a number of levels, from taking over places,
to controlling a slot, to simply owning popularity by having a digital representation
of many friends.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 31. Pride
 Definition: the feeling of ownership and joy at an accomplishment
 Example: I have ten badges. I own them. They are mine. There are
many like them, but these are mine. Hooray.
 32. Privacy
 Definition: The concept that certain information is private, not for public
distribution. This can be a demotivator (I won’t take an action because I
don’t want to share this) or a motivator (by sharing this I reinforce my
own actions).
 Example: Scales the publish your daily weight onto Twitter (these are
real and are proven positive motivator for staying on your diet). Or having
your location publicly broadcast anytime you do anything (which is
invasive and can should be avoided).
 33. Progression Dynamic
 Definition: a dynamic in which success is granularly displayed and
measured through the process of completing itemized tasks.
 Example: a progress bar, leveling up from paladin level 1 to paladin level
60
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 34. Ratio Reward Schedules
 Definition: Ratio schedules provide a reward after a number
of actions. There are two flavors: variable and fixed.
 Example: kill 10 orcs, get a power up.
 35. Real-time v. Delayed Mechanics
 Definition: Realtime information flow is uninhibited by delay.
Delayed information is only released after a certain interval.
 Example: Realtime scores cause instant reaction (gratification
or demotivation). Delayed causes ambiguity which can incent
more action due to the lack of certainty of ranking.
 36. Reinforcer
 Definition: The reward given if the expected action is carried
out in the three part paradigm of reward schedules.
 Example: receiving a level up after killing 10 orcs.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 37. Response
 Definition: The expected action from the player in the three
part paradigm of reward schedules.
 Example: the player takes the action to kill 10 orcs
 38. Reward Schedules
 Definition: the timeframe and delivery mechanisms through
which rewards (points, prizes, level ups) are delivered. Three
main parts exist in a reward schedule; contingency, response
and reinforcer.
 Example: getting a level up for killing 10 orcs, clearing a row
in Tetris, getting fresh crops in Farmville
 39. Rolling Physical Goods
 Definition: A physical good (one with real value) that can be
won by anyone on an ongoing basis as long as they meet
some characteristic. However, that characteristic rolls from
player to player.
 Example: top scorer deals, mayor deals
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 40. Shell Game
 Definition: a game in which the player is presented with the
illusion of choice but is actually in a situation that guides them
to the desired outcome of the operator.
 Example: 3 Card Monty, lotteries, gambling
 41. Social Fabric of Games
 Definition: the idea that people like one another better after
they’ve played games with them, have a higher level of trust
and a great willingness to work together.
 Example: From Jane McGonicgal’s TED talk where she
suggests that it takes a lot of trust to play a game with
someone because you need them to spend their time with
you, play by the same rules, shoot for the same goals.
 42. Status
 Definition: The rank or level of a player. Players are often
motivated by trying to reach a higher level or status.
 Example: white paladin level 20 in WOW.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 43. Urgent Optimism
 Definition: Extreme self motivation. The desire to act
immediately to tackle an obstacle combined with the belief that
we have a reasonable hope of success.
 Example: From Jane McGonical’s TED talk. The idea that in
proper games an “epic win” or just “win” is possible and therefore
always worth acting for.
 44. Variable Interval Reward Schedules
 Definition: Variable interval reward schedules provide a reward
after a roughly consistent amount of time. This tends to create a
reasonably high level of activity over time, as the player could
receive a reward at any time but never the burst as created under
a fixed schedule. This system is also more immune to the nadir
right after the receiving of a reward, but also lacks the zenith of
activity before a reward in unlocked due to high levels of
ambiguity.
 Example: Wait roughly 30 minutes, a new weapon appears.
Check back as often as you want but that won’t speed it up.
Generally players are bad at realizing that.
SCVNGR GAME DYNAMICS PLAYDECK
 45. Variable Ratio Reward Schedule
 Definition: A variable ratio reward schedule provides rewards after a
roughly consistent but unknown amount of actions. This creates a
relatively high consistent rate of activity (as there could always be a
reward after the next action) with a slight increase as the expected
reward threshold is reached, but never the huge burst of a fixed ratio
schedule. It’s also more immune to nadirs in engagement after a reward
is acheived.
 Example: kill something like 20 ships, get a level up. Visit a couple
locations (roughly five) get a badge
 46. Viral Game Mechanics
 Definition: A game element that requires multiple people to play (or that
can be played better with multiple people)
 Example: Farmville making you more successful in the game if you
invite your friends, the social check-in
 47. Virtual Items
 Definition: Digital prizes, rewards, objects found or taken within the
course of a game. Often these can be traded or given away.
 Example: Gowalla’s items, Facebook gifts, badges
MECHANIKY - JESSE SCHELL
MECHANIKY - JESSE SCHELL
 Jesse Schell vidí 4 základní herní elementy –
estetiku, příběh, technologii a mechaniky
 Mechaniky jsou tedy interakce a vztahy, které
zůstanou, když odstraníme veškerou estetiku,
technologii a příběh
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
 http://youtu.be/8m_BApSNas8?t=18s
 Každá hra se odehrává v nějakém prostoru
 Prostor může být: nespojitý či spojitý
 Může mít více dimenzí
 Může mít navazující prostory, které ovšem
nemusejí být spojeny
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
 I původně spojitý prostor lez chápat jako nespojitý –
green na golfovém hřišti, pokutové území ve fotbale
 Takto rozčleněný prostor může pomoci jak upravovat
pravidla pro jednotlivé části (v pokutovém území fungují
jiná pravidla, než mimo něj), tak i pro analýzu
rozdílného způsobu hraní
 Pro tvorbě hry je dobré nakreslit si abstraktní modely
prostoru, aby byla vidět jejich vzájemná provázanost.
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
MECHANIKA 1: PROSTOR
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY
 Objekty (předměty) vyplnují hru
 Každý objekt má obecně jeden či více atributů
 Atributy jsou tak kategorie informací o objektu
 Každý atribut má aktuální stav
 Objekty jsou podstatná jména herních mechanik,
atributy a jejich stavy jsou přídavjnými jmény
 Atributy jsou statické – neměnné v průběhu hry,
nebo dynamické – ty lze měnit v průběhu hry (král v
šachách)
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY
 V Dostizích a sázkách má každý kůň několik stavů
podle žetonů
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY
 Stavy atributů, či atributy samotné není nutné
sdělovat hráči, ale designér musí vědět, jaký objekt
áa jaký atribut a co spouští změnu jeho stavu
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY:
TAJEMSTVÍ
 Zásadní otázka: Kdo a kdy zná jaký atribut a stav?
 Základ mnoha her je právě neznalost stavu (karty),
u deskových je to dost často opačně.
 U digitálních her je důležité, nakolik a jestli zná
počítač hráčovy atributy a herní stav
(vybalancovanost)
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY:
TAJEMSTVÍ
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY
 Nepřehnat t os nárokem na hráče – neměl by
muset znát příliš stavů
MECHANIKA 2: OBJEKTY, ATRIBUTY A STAVY
MECHANIKA 3: AKCE
 Akce jsou slovesa herních mechanik.
 Operativní akce: akce, které může hráč konkrétně
provést
 Výsledné akce (resultant): akce vedoucí k dosažení
cíle
 Výsledné akce nebývají částí pravidel, či s nimi
přímo nereagují. Jsou to spíš strategie, které hráč
využívá pro splnění cílů
 Je důležité výsledné akce průběžně měnit, nechat
je vyvíjet se (nutit hráče měnit způsob hraní).
 Průběžně se měnící výsledné akce jsou znakem
dobré hry, protože udržují hru zábavnou.
MECHANIKA 3: AKCE
 5 rad pro komplexní hru::
 Přidat slovesa (operativní akce)
 Slovesa by měla fungovat na co nejvíc objektů
 Cíle by měly být dosažitelné více způsoby
 Hodně předmětů
 Vedlejší efekty které mění omezení a podmínky
(blokování pohybu, ztráta karet apod.)
MECHANIKA 3: AKCE
MECHANIKA 4: PRAVIDLA
 Pro Schella nejzákladnější mechanika
 Definují prostor, objekty, akce, následky akcí,
podmínky a omezení akcí a cíle.
 Pro digitální hry platí specifikum: Vynucovatelem a
správcem pravidel je jen počítač. Co dříve bývalo
pravidlo, je nyní omezením herního světa.
 Designér je tak jediným vládcem pravidel, což mu
dává nejen velké možnosti, ale zároveň velkou
zodpovědnost.
PARLETTOVA ANALÝZA PRAVIDEL
MECHANIKA 4: PRAVIDLA - CÍL
 Schell vnímá cíl jako mechaniku
 Cíl musí být:
 Konkrétní
 Dosažitelný
 Odměňující
MECHANIKA 4: PRAVIDLA
 What is the ultimate goal of my game?
 Is that goal clear to players?
 If there is a series of goals, do the players
understand that?
 Are the different goals related to each other in a
meaningful way?
 Are my goals concrete, achievable, and rewarding?
 Do I have a good balance of short- and long-term
goals?
 Do players have a chance to decide on their own
goals?
MECHANIKA 4: PRAVIDLA
 What are the foundational rules of my game? How
do these differ from the operational rules?
 Are there “laws ” or “house rules ” that are forming
as the game develops?
 Should these be incorporated into my game
directly?
 Who enforces the rules?
 Are the rules easy to understand, or is there
confusion about them? If there is confusion, should
I fix it by changing the rules or by explaining them
more clearly?
MECHANIKA 5: DOVEDNOSTI
 Skutečné hráčovy dovednosti
 Fyzické: reakce, koordinace pohybů, výdrž,…
 Mentální: taktika, řešení hádanek apod.
 Sociální: čtení oponenta,…
 Reálné vs. virtuální dovednosti
 Je důležité zjistit, které dovednosti a v jaké míře
jsou po hráči vyžadovány
 Je dobré vypsat si seznam
MECHANIKA 5: DOVEDNOSTI
 http://youtu.be/OVeANFIH1J4
MECHANIKA 5: DOVEDNOSTI
 What skills does my game require from the player?
 Are there categories of skill that this game is
missing?
 Which skills are dominant?
 Are these skills creating the experience I want?
 Are some players much better at these skills than
others? Does this make
 the game feel unfair?
 Can players improve their skills with practice?
 Does this game demand the right level of skill?