* T95-62, C60, 1 of 2, Sound Quality Good * Valentina Bold interviews Jimmy Murray * Bury, Greater Manchester, 9/5/1995 * Transcribed by Joan Simpson * JM=Jimmy Murray, VB=Valentina Bold 001 [Side A starts] JM: Five nieces in what WAS Yugoslavia. But is now Slovania. VB: Right. [Setting up tape recorder]. JM: At one time that was all Austrian. VB: Of course. JM: It was German speakin. VB: Yeah. 007 JM: A said, you could record and send a tape, instead of [pause; 1 second]. It's HARD work with letters [laughs]! VB: Yes. Yes, it is sometimes. Yeah. A find that too. It's much easier just to speak to people. Saves the cost of a phone call [amused voice] as well if you do that. JM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. VB: I'll just put that over beside you. 010 JM: Have you to plug in? VB: No. That's great. JM: Oh! It's on battery. VB: Yeah. JM: Yeah. VB: So that should be great. Em, A was also wondering if I could maybe ask you one or two questions about yourself. Just so I can get an idea about, JM: Yeah. Yeah, anything you want, love. Yeah, anything you want. VB: Right. So, was it here you were born? Were you born in Bury? JM: Eh, yes. Yeah, yeah. VB: Right. 015 JM: They started a WAR actually [amused voice] to get me out a Bury [Laughs]. VB: Really! [Laughs]. So have you lived here most of your life apart from that time in Austria? 016 JM: Just the seven year in the forces. VB: Right. Can I ask what it was your father did? What sort of work your father did? JM: Me father. VB: Yeah. JM: He WAS a railway fireman. VB: Right. JM: An then, [pause; 2 seconds], somethin appened so he went workin at the eh local gasworks as a stoker. VB: Right. And did your mother work herself? JM: No. No, she didn't work. She just eh, she brought the family up. VB: Yeah. How many of there were you in the family? 022 JM: Eh, two sisters. Had two sisters. VB: And can I ask what year you were married in? JM: What year I was married? VB: Yeah. JM: Eh, 40 [pause; 2 seconds], 48. VB: 1948. JM: 1948. Yeah. 025 VB: So, did you meet your wife then, when you were overseas? JM: In Austria, yeah. VB: Yeah. JM: Yeah. VB: Sounds very romantic that. JM: That's why I blamed eh, one of the lads A was lookin for. VB: Yeah. JM: He eh, as soon as we got to Austria, he says eh, 'Ah've got us a job.' A said, 'What doin?' He says, 'As [batmen?] to the company commander an his eh, an the other one.' A said, 'Yeah, but you don't know anythin about [batmen?]' He says, 'No, but YOU do.' VB: [Laughs]. 030 JM: An it's through him, that I met my wife. VB: Oh well. JM: A could KILL im. [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. A lucky meeting A think. JM: [Laughing]. She's a good un. [Laughs]. 032 VB: Eh, and, does your wife work or has she worked? JM: No. She's never. That's why she's on the 33 pound a week pension. VB: Yeah. JM: Because it's not counted as, not working, going out to work. VB: Right. Of course. 035 JM: All she's done is brought seven children up. [Amused voice]. VB: Oh well. JM: [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. Nothing very much, is it? JM: Worked 23 hours a day. VB: Yeah. JM: You know. VB: Goodness me, yeah. That's the hardest sort of work there is really, isn't it? JM: [Chuckles]. VB: Em, can I ask also if you have any strong political views? JM: Not eh, not really. I'd just like the TWO parties, VB: Yeah. 038 JM: In a sense, to get together. An the BEST IDEAS from both sides. VB: Yeah. JM: Let's ave em together an we'll get somewhere, instead of eh, that's the only thing. VB: Yeah. JM: They should both work together. Like the wartime coalition. VB: Yeah. 041 JM: They all pulled their ideas an out it came like, ye know. VB: Yeah. JM: Mm. That's about it. Ah'm really Labour like. A have to be Labour because A am normally. An eh, just as we were goin [pause; 1 second]. The polls appened ere, on the Thursday, everybody went to polls. An just as we was goin in, friend a mine were comin out with is wife. An A said, 'What's this wi the white?' He were votin for. An ee stopped, he said, 'Eh? You what?' An she were the Conservative one! [Bursts out laughing]. VB: Oh no! [Laughs]. 048 JM: A saw them again on Sunday [amused voice], A said, 'Mine didn't ger in!' He said, 'GO away.' [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. JM: Go away. VB: Aye. The only other thing A was wanting to ask, it's not about the cinema, is, because I'm taping this just now em, the tapes are going to be kept in Glasgow University for the time being. It's possible that people in the future might listen to them to get information about cinema. JM: Yes. VB: Do you have any objection to that? JM: Oh, no. No, no. VB: Right. 054 JM: None at all, love. VB: Em, in that case, could A ask you to sign this form? JM: Ah, I will. VB: To stop you suing us [amused voice] basically. [Laughs]. JM: [Laughs]. Which one? 055 VB: Just to be signed here. JM: Just here, love? VB: Yeah. Though I'm sure we won't be saying anything incriminating but [laughs]. JM: [Laughs]. No. VB: Just to keep the officials happy. JM: Ah! VB: I'll just sign it too. [Signs form]. That's great. So that's the sort of official stuff [laughs]. 060 JM: You're not gonna be liable then [laughs]. VB: No, no, that's it. You can't sue us now [laughs]. JM: No court cases. VB: Yeah. Lost your chance to get that lottery money [laughs] another way! JM: [Laughs]. VB: Em, so as I say, I was really interested by your letter. And you mentioned quite a number of cinemas. 063 JM: Yes. VB: Round about here. JM: Yes. Yeah. VB: Eh, cause A think actually A saw the Art on the way up. JM: That's the one facin the interchange. VB: Yeah. 064 JM: At the interchange. That's one. An then, A don't know which road you came. Whether you came round, VB: Was that the one that was the shaky one, that you were saying, with the railway? JM: No. That was another one. That was, see, I don't know which road the [pause; 2 seconds] eh [pause; 2 seconds]. What road the 471 comes. [Pause; 3 seconds]. Because, did you come through the town? Or did you come on a circular, on the bus? VB: Em, 070 JM: Wait a minute. Ah'll ask the wife what road the 471 comes. VB: It was the 509 A got actually. JM: [Moves away; voice from distance]. 509? VB: 509, yeah. JM: Are you there [M?]. MrsM: Yes. JM: What road does the 509 come out? I'm tryin to get the cinema for eh. Does it come through [inaudible]? Or through town. MrsM: No, through town. 074 JM: Through town, that's all. MrsM: From eh, JM: Yeah. Oh well, that's the one then. MrsM: Is that the one ye came on? VB: Yes. JM: So then actually ye passed another two cinemas. VB: Right. A didn't notice them. 077 JM: No. Eh, one was the Regal on yer right hand side. Where all the work is bein done. That was another railway station. Well that was the one that, they used to shake everybody out. That was another one but it's burned down now. VB: Yeah. JM: It was all WOOD. Can you imagine two or three hundred people in a wooden buildin nowadays like ye know? [Amused laugh]. It's turned into the Palais de Dance but there were nobody in it when it burnt down like. Ah. That was the eh, that was the other one. VB: Right. JM: Ah, it was all wooden. You wouldn't a gone near there. They wouldn't a let ye anywhere near it. VB: No. 085 JM: Durin the wartime, when it WAS the Palais de Dance, you could ave about 400 eh, people, all DANCIN away. A wooden buildin. VB: Was it quite, it must've been pretty big then. JM: Oh yeah. Big. Could hold a good couple a hundred or two hundred an fifty people, you know. At tuppence a time. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Did you like the JAM JAR one? VB: Yes. JM: Ah! Well, that's right. VB: Yeah. 090 JM: Ah. Three jam jars. Eh, or one vinegar bottle. For one vinegar bottle you got a penny. An for three jam jars you got a penny. So, if you ad any relation they'd to empty the vinegar bottle. Or eh, get the jam out an put it on a plate. [Chuckles]. Ye know. Aye. That was it. VB: How often did you go when you were a child? 095 JM: Eh, as many times as you got a PENNY. [Laughs]. VB: Yeah. [Laughs]. JM: Ye just LIVED in eh, in CINEMAS like, ye know. Eh [pause; 2 seconds], there was NOTHIN else to do really because ye ad [pause; 2 seconds]. Well, WIRELESSES hadn't come out then. Ye know, so. But it was so cheap to go, ye know. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Specially the one, you just passed ANOTHER one, on, on the bridge as you came over the bridge with the river. Well, it's a Kwik Fit, exhausts an things. That was the one, the main one for this AREA of the, round ere. That was the one wi the penny an the tuppence ADMISSION. Ye know. But eh, VB: What was that one called? JM: That was the EMPIRE. VB: Right. JM: An this is where you get the eh, THE Empire. Ye leave the Ee out. An it's Th'Emy. Th'Ip. Th'Art. VB: [Laughs]. JM: An this is how ye get the [laughs]. Nobody ever said, 'Ave ye been in the Art?' VB: [Laughs]. JM: 'Ave ye been in't th'Art?' [Laughs]. Aye. It was the th. Aye. Th'Ip, Th'Art, Th'Emy an Th'Odeon. [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. Sounds quite affectionate, when you put it like that. JM: Ah, ye see. Ah. VB: Yeah. Did you have any favourites out of these yourself? Did you have a favourite cinema? 112 JM: Eh [pause; 3 seconds]. Well, I should say this one down ere. Cause THIS one, at THIS end, the EMPIRE, it could change three times a week. So, for yer penny, or tuppence, you could go three times a week to THAT one. Where, some a them in the town charged eh, THRUPPENCE, or SIXPENCE. So, they were like a SPECIAL OCCASION. Them. But ere you could do Monday, Wednesday an Friday [laughs]. An perhaps Saturday mornin, ye know. VB: Really? JM: Saturday was COWBOY time. VB: Right. Did they get the films after the ones in town? JM: What, eh? VB: The Empire. Did they get the films later than the ones in town? A was just wondering when you said it was, it was a bit cheaper. JM: No, they were eh [pause; 1 second]. Everybody ad a [pause; 2 seconds]. All the cinemas ad eh, a SPECIAL type a film. Same as eh, the Art'd ave eh, [pause; 2 seconds], Jeanette MacDonald an Nelson Eddy. MUSICAL. The Empire'd ave COWBOYS. An so it more it less went on. They all ad their own BRAND. In a sense like, ye know. VB: That's interesting. JM: Ah. 128 VB: Did you like the musicals yourself? JM: Oh yeah! Yeah. Yeah. The eh, we were watchin them on't telly last night, that dancin. That River Dance. And eh, I said, 'Ooh, my.' An then there was one, said, 'Ooh, Fred Astaire an Ginger Rogers!' Them too, like, ye know. Aye. Musicals. Ah, them were LOVELY them. [Said fondly]. Jeanette MacDonald, Nelson Eddy an eh, Tom Jones the singer, is FATHER. Ee was the eh, he was a singer, eh, TENOR. Ee ad musicals an eh, BRILLIANT. Then we come to Bing Crosbies an oh! A SAW Frank Sinatra's first one when A was in eh, in ICELAND. VB: Right! JM: With the airforce. That was a FUNNY one. About cinemas there. It was eh [pause; 2 seconds. This [station?] airfield we was on. We ad a small American camp. An they used to get the films. But it was OUR cinema. But all it was, it was a CORRUGATED buildin. SHED, you'd term it. An that were all right. They brought all the LATEST films over. They were no old-fashioned things. They were all the latest. An eh [pause; 2 seconds], most of them went in an we could go in then. But, in the winter, if it'd been snowin, which it did in Iceland, you'd go in an all the [forms?] were covered in snow. So [laughs], you'd to wear big overcoats. Quilted coats like. An we ad to, brush all the snow away, off the seats. An then, we'd be sit there. The film would be on, it'd still be snowin through but nobody bothered! [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. 151 JM: Aye. VB: Ah. JM: Nobody bothered. An then all this about not smokin anywhere. In Iceland, in 1941, there was no smokin in the cinemas. VB: Really? JM: An we're just THINKIN about it now. An eh, they had no smokin in the cinemas. All the forces ad LOADS a cigarettes. But nobody dared smoke in the cinema. An eh, they used to ave an interval. Alfway through. All the lights went on. An you came out. All smoke as many cigarettes as ye could, in 10 minutes an then went back, [laughs], an started again like. VB: [Laughs]. 160 JM: Now, we're just thinkin about, VB: Yeah. JM: Stoppin smokin in places. VB: Yeah. JM: Ah. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Ah they were good uns, them two. But the one wi the snow, it were PRETTY GOOD that. Used to sit there [pause; 2 seconds], snowin on't top aw ye but there's still a film on. VB: Yes. 163 JM: That's where A saw FRANK SINATRA for't first time, ye know. They got those films. Ah, they were brilliant. [Pause; 4 seconds]. VB: Were any of the cinemas round here quite basic? A mean maybe not with the snow coming through the roof but, JM: Eh, no. They were all eh [pause; 3 seconds]. Well, they used to call this the eh, the FLEAPIT. VB: Right. JM: THIS one ere. A think they call ALL cinemas FLEAPITS, eh, you know. Aye. They WERE a bit rough. But what did ye want for a PENNY? [Laughs]. VB: Mm. Yeah. 171 JM: Well that one, the one A was talkin about in the SILENT pictures days. A mean, I must've only been about [pause; 1 second]. Must've been FOUR cause A wouldn't ave been IN the cinema then. Ah'd ave been at SCHOOL. An, this lady, she could read an write. Our next door neighbour. Me mother COULDN'T read or write. In fact, she couldn't sign er name so, eh, so she [drew?] pension A don't think. VB: Mm. JM: An, the, they used to be talkin. An this used to be appenin. All over the, all over the CINEMA. BAGS a somethin rattlin an eh, you know, all sorts. Nobody bothered. VB: [Smiles]. 179 JM: There were no SOUND, so it didn't [laughs] make any DIFFERENCE if you talked. Aye. VB: Cause A was interested as well when you were talking about the music in the cinemas, the pianist and, JM: Oh that! VB: Yes. JM: Oh, they had to have a PIANIST, eh, a pianist an a violinist. Oh that was a MUST. If you'd nothin else, they were on, because if you had a COWBOY film an the posse were CHASIN somebody, ye ad the piano player going like, like the BELLS! Oh! He went. He went RATTLIN away like nobody's business! An then eh, when it came to the tear, the tear one, where they shed the tears, the violinist came in, ooh, with a VENGEANCE there. VB: [Smiles]. 189 JM: Oh! They really went to town. Ah. An they were there every night! A wouldn't say it were a full-time job cause at the Castle pictures, she was the florist across the road. She ad a shop, just across the road. In fact A think, the shop's still there but eh, because shops THERE have never altered. An eh, they were just kind of a part-time, part-time job. Yeah. But they were there, wherever you went. They ad a BIG ORGAN in that one. But A never saw it played. Nobody ever PLAYED the organ. An eh [pause; 2 seconds] an then they came to the FANCY stuff with the proper organs. The Art. That was a POSH place. Blue plush seats, in there. That's why they charged thruppence you see. Because the seats were BETTER. An they ad the organ. Used to come up like. RISE up there an give a recital. [Pause; 2 seconds]. An then we ad another one, the theatre, they got one. That was originally a VARIETY theatre an then they changed it to, when variety started dying out, they changed it to a cinema. An THEY got one. An they ad all the eh, all the famous organists came for a week. Eh, Sidney [Torch?], and [Macpherson?]. One or two more came at night. To draw the crowd an all like, you know. Ah. [Pause; 2 seconds]. 212 VB: A was going to ask as well, when you say that was a variety place, did any of the cinemas have turns or go-as-you-please, or things like that? JM: Eh, A think the eh, the EMPIRE tried that. VB: Yeah. JM: What they called eh, a JOY night. It was Wednesday an Friday. They used to put a little bit of what you'd term a STAGE down. An they'd ave somebody up. They'd perhaps have someone out of the audience or, just something, you know, all sorts a little things. Just to do. They were about the only ones that DID that. [Pause; 2 seconds]. That was one what they tried, to try an get MORE people. CONTINUOUS cinema. It were all right if you wanted to go an ave a sleep. VB: [Laughs]. JM: [Laughs]. Oh, wartime, a lot of the lads went in the cinema, in the afternoon, to save their self for the NIGHT you see. An eh, they'd go in, watch film, perhaps ave a doze, go to sleep, an then they were fit for't night to go an [laughs] ave a drink wi the mates! VB: Right. [Laughs]. 229 JM: They were continuous. The ODEON was the main one with the continuous. You could go in an well, you could probably ave stopped all day till probably morning kind of thing, you know. But eh, couldn't see any JOY in seeing the end of filmin, an sittin through it again [laughs]. VB: Were you one of these people that has to see it right from the start? JM: Yeah. Yeah. VB: Right. JM: Let's have it from't start. Like readin a BOOK. VB: Yeah. JM: But eh [pause; 3 seconds], ah, continuous. VB: Were there big queues before they had that? Were there ever big queues outside the cinema? JM: Oh! There was ALWAYS a queue. Yeah. Aye, there was always queues. An there was two shots a night. You know. In fact my eh, Ah'd never been to a second ouse, we termed it the first ouse an second ouse. An A was 14 before A was allowed to go into the second ouse. An that was over at 10 o'clock. 8 till 10. VB: Right. 244 JM: Mm, I was about 14 till the eh, father said, 'You can go in the second ouse tonight.' An I was OFF down that road. As though A were 95. VB: Ah dear. [Laughs]. JM: A were BIG lad now! 14 year old. [Chuckles]. VB: [Laughs]. JM: A can go in the second ouse. It were only the same as first ouse but [laughs]. VB: But later. Did you ever go with your family? JM: What the eh, my mother and father? VB: Both your mother and father? 252 JM: Not really. I used to just sail off. Me mother were never interested. Father went occasionally, but he was always workin. Took a lot out of is LIFE. He worked seven days a week an all sorts of hours. Ah. He might get one day off in three week. [Laughs]. Times have changed. VB: Yes. JM: An he'd perhaps go to cinema that once. But eh, mother never bothered. So that left me to go. VB: Yeah. 260 JM: Ah'd to REPRESENT them! [Laughs]. VB: Yeah. [Laughs]. Did you ever go with your friends? Or was it on your own? JM: Oh, always had quite a few. In fact, eh, this little un down ere, A think it went to TUPPENCE down at the bottom. An there used to be about 10 of us. In a gang. An one, eh, he's dead now, Lord rest his soul. A bit of a boy. An, ee used to say, 'Give us yer money. Ave ye any haypennies?' Somebody'd say, 'Yeah, Ah've got, [pause; 1 second]. He'd get as much COPPER as he could. Now there were 10 of us, an ee'd ave haypennies, pennies. An then we'd all go to the TICKET BOX. An eh, ee'd say, 'Right. I'll pay for em all.' And we used to TROOP in. An as we trooped in, he'd go an throw all this money down. An they'd SCATTER all over. PENNIES, an HAYPENNIES. He'd say, 'Eight.' VB: [Laughs]. 279 JM: He took a chance but he made four pee! [Laughs]. Four pennies! [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. JM: He never got CAUGHT, but that were is favourite thing. 'Tickets!' An as we went in, we'd say, 'He's gor em. He's gerrin em. He's gerrin em.' And Paddy always took, Paddy Delaney ee were called, he always took this job on like, ye know. Aye. [Pause; 2 seconds]. But once you'd got in, we'd eh, you call them BOUNCERS now but we called them CHUCKER OUTS. An ee were called Ernie this one here. He worked all day an then ee did this at night. A big TALL fella. An this eh, Ernie'd be stood there an we'd all be goin, an sayin, 'Ee's payin, Ernie! Ee's gerrin tickets.' But, if ye did anythin wrong, Ernie were there. 'You! OUT.' An if ee threw one out an then we all went! [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. 295 JM: But Paddy, ee were determined. Aye. Pennies an haypennies. VB: Did you talk about the films much with your friends then? JM: Oh yeah! Yeah, everybody. Oh yeah. It was main topic a CONVERSATION like, you know. It was really MEETING PLACE. We ad eh, bit of a football team. No LEAGUES or anythin. We just played. An ye'd been eh, in the cinema, Friday night. Somebody'd say, 'Ave ye a match tomorra?' Ye know, and eh, arrange different things like, you know. Aye. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Then me sister, one night me sister said, 'You lot. [Low, whispering voice]. We couldn't hear film for you lot at front.' Somebody'd started an, all TALK away like, ye know. They were SIXPENNIES at back. They were COURTIN COUPLES. VB: Ah, I see. Was she a bit older than you then? JM: Well, yeah. VB: [Laughs]. 313 JM: One cinema ad special eh, special seats. The Scala, there. They were way out like, you know. An they ad the back row. They'd took arm rest off so it made one seat for the couples, you know. They could do a bit a SNOGGIN on't back seat kinda thing. [Amused voice]. VB: [Laughs]. JM: Instead of avin arms STICKIN into the other. Aye. [Pause; 3 seconds]. VB: Did you ever do that yourself when you got a bit older? JM: Eh, A never bothered. Well, A couldn't take anybody in't cinema. [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. 322 JM: Never ad ENOUGH for two! [Laughs]. VB: Ah, I see. JM: We was too busy as gangs. Too busy as goin as GANGS of about four or five or six, you know. If we weren't in the cinema, we used to go for a walk, all round. VB: Right. JM: We never bothered about anythin. Aye. But the ODEON, when that opened, you could eh, as A say, that were a POSH place, the Odeon. They ad eh, foam-coloured like, VELVET seats. Oh, they were right eh, up. Eh, you could BOOK, you could book yer seats and then eh, somebody'd go up an book 10 seats. Then we could leave it to the last minute to go in, an there'd be a QUEUE, right round. [Amazed voice]. QUEUING up to, always QUEUES there were. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Could be no money but we FOUND it for't cinema. VB: Yeah. JM: Ah, we did that. VB: Did the Odeon open up during the thirties then? 342 JM: What? VB: The Odeon. Was that quite a recent cinema? JM: Well it were about the last in Bury actually, to be built. VB: Right. Yeah. JM: Mm. We ad eh [pause; 3 seconds], ANNA NEAGLE. SHE opened it. SHE opened that one. Cut the tape. And we ad a real CHARACTER. Frank, FRANK DOCHERTY ee were called. An eh, he was always on the beer, Frank. So, this particular time, he got FINED, for singin in the streets. He said, 'What annoyed me,' he said, 'was,' [pause; 2 seconds]. A forget who the film was. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Say it were FRANK SINATRA. He said, 'Frank Sinatra was singin INSIDE, an ee were all right. I was singin OUTSIDE an got bloody FINED!' [LAUGHS]. VB: [Laughs]. 362 JM: Ah dear. VB: Ah. A mean it's interesting as well that you say that Anna Neagle opened the Odeon. Was that quite a big event? JM: Oh yeah! Yeah. VB: Yeah. JM: Oh aye. In bulletins an all over, you know. We didn't go ourselves but, you know, everybody'd turn up to see Anna Neagle, cuttin the tape for the Odeon like, ye know. VB: Yeah. 366 JM: Cause she was the star a the Rank eh, the Rank thing. VB: Yeah. JM: See, when they opened the REGAL, that were only one of our BEAUTY QUEENS that opened that. But when you ad the ODEON, it was ANNA NEAGLE like, you know. We went the LOT. VB: Yeah. JM: Aye. [Pause; 2 seconds]. 374 VB: Did you have favourites among the stars yourself? Was Anna Neagle someone that you liked? JM: Eh, well GENERAL A liked them all like. Ye ad MORE. For a minute A can't just eh, can't just THINK. A saw that MUCH. VB: [Laughs]. 380 JM: You know, the COMEDY ones. The SINGIN ones. You know. The SERIOUS ones. Oh well, them were eh [pause; 2 seconds]. LIONEL BARRYMORE. He was another one there. [Tape cuts out; end of recording]. End of Side A T95-62. Side B 000 [Side B starts] JM: In fact, my brother-in-law, I think it's Spencer Tracey's CAPTAIN COURAGEOUS. An ee said, [pause; 2 seconds], 'He's in that film, for 20 minutes [pause; 1 second] an never speaks a work. For the first 20 minutes.' So A thought, oh, Ah'll watch this. An went to see the film. An ee were RIGHT. For the first 20 minutes, he was on the SCREEN, an never spoke a WORD. [Amazed voice]. Yeah. A though, good grief! Like, singin, in the singin line, it were DEFINITELY Bing Crosby. That was the one. [Pause; 2 seconds]. An then the MUSICALS, ye ad yer [pause; 1 second] Jeanette MacDonald an Nelson Eddy an [pause; 4 seconds]. The COWBOY films ad gone then. VB: Yeah. 010 JM: [Pause; 2 seconds]. The big favourite then in the eh, oh, PAUL ROBESON, ee were another. Ee, ee could SING. Ee was in the first [pause; 3 seconds], the first talkin pictures, we termed it. In eh, in Bury. VB: Ah! JM: THE SHOW BOAT. VB: Right. JM: THE SHOW BOAT. The next one were Jolson. THE SINGING FOOL. That was a TEAR one that one. VB: Aw. JM: Everybody ad to CRY at that. [Pause; 3 seconds]. Ah. But eh, as A say, you could go from one cinema to another. Everybody ad a different, a different FILM. Singin in one an [pause; 3 seconds]. All eh, they all ad their own. VB: Yeah. 019 JM: If ye ad the MONEY! VB: [Laughs]. JM: By the time ye got the money [laughs] ad run out a goin to films. A don't think Ah've been to five, since we came out the forces. VB: Yeah. Do you think films are different now, from the ones they made? JM: I don't think they're as GOOD, really. Eh, well, of what I hear an what I see, they don't seem to last. Tell ye where they show a lot of old ones. In Yugoslavia. VB: Right! 024 JM: On eh, [L?] Television. They're all BLACK AN WHITE. But it's all right for me when I go. If I wanted to watch. Because it's ENGLISH-SPEAKIN wi Yugoslavian SUBTITLES! [Amused voice]. VB: Right. JM: So that's all right. But the FILMS! Ooh, they're in BLACK an WHITE. Yeah. Ah. VB: That's interesting. JM: They're really eh, VB: Yeah. 028 JM: Aye, really OLD-FASHIONED. VB: Do you watch the old films on TV here when you get the chance? JM: Eh, not really. Cause we never ave the telly ON durin't day. VB: Mm. JM: Apart from NEWS, to see who's eh, who's killin who an who's doin what. That's all there is! [Laughs]. On the news like, you know. VB: Yeah. 032 JM: My lad loves is eh, ee's 40 [pause; 2 seconds]. The eldest lad, that lives at ome. He's 40, fivish. Ah'll put im down as 45. Somethin like that anyway. An eh, 'Laurel an Hardy's on!' [Enthusiastic voice]. An he LAPS it up. VB: Yeah. JM: Laurel an Hardy. Aye. VB: Do you like Laurel an Hardy yourself? 035 JM: Oh, yeah. Yeah. VB: Yeah. JM: Yeah. That was another one, the eh, the MARX BROTHERS. We watched on ere one night, on the telly, an eh, one a me daughters was sit ere, an she went PURPLE. Her face went PURPLE! [Amazed voice]. A had to BASH er on the back. She couldn't get the laugh, out, what she wanted. VB: [Laughs]. JM: S'a wonder she didn't PASS out! She were, she just COULDN'T get the laugh. An it was a SCENE from Marx eh [pause; 2 seconds]. They'd done one. An ee's at the DENTIST. An the dentist, Groucho said to [pause; 2 seconds]. '[Say?] louder.' An ee's just opened is mouth. Well, she FOLDED up with this one, an she just went PURPLE in the face an Ah'm, [demonstrates; slaps], HITTIN her on't back to try an [pause; 2 seconds]. TEARS were running down er face with, you know. Never seen anythin like it. That was a scene where ee were at the dentist an he's sayin, 'Louder.' VB: [Laughs]. 047 JM: Then another, before then they ad eh, eh, [pause; 2 seconds]. What were they called? More, [pause; 3 second]. [Curly?] more. You remember em the other day. VB: One of these, JM: There were three of em. The eh, comic eh. Before the Marx Brothers. VB: Were there the Ritz Brothers? The Ritz Brothers as well, weren't there? JM: [Curly. More?] and [pause; 1 second]. It'll come back soon. VB: Yeah. 052 JM: Yeah. VB: Not the Three Stooges? JM: THREE STOOGES! They're the ones! They were BRILLIANT an all, the STOOGES. Yeah. Aye. The Stooges. [Pause; 2 seconds]. I only mention it to another thing that they used to ave. A think MICKEY ROONEY was in it. Eh, OUR GANG. An A think they based the TOP CATS on the television off that. They're like a gang of CATS, an these were a gang of KIDS or somethin. I'm SURE Mickey Rooney were the little boss in eh, VB: Right. JM: In it. Aye. An ee had a little dog. A little dog wi a BLACK PATCH for one eye. VB: [Laughs]. 059 JM: Or somethin. Aye. OUR GANG. [Said thoughtfully]. VB: Did you like Charlie Chaplin? JM: Well, A can just remember eh, BITS about im. A just remember THE GOLD RUSH. Where he's eatin the eh, the sole of is shoe an spittin the nails out like bones on a fish or somethin. VB: [Laughs]. JM: A never SAW is other one, the eh, MODERN TIMES A think it were called. A never SAW that one. Na. [Laughs]. See, what was the other one? [Pause; 2 seconds]. Oh, another one was eh, in the silent picture time, Dick [T?]. He was like a, what you'd term, like a RATTLES. Or somethin like that. An ee'd ave a BLACK SUIT on, with white pumps. For the simple reason, he'd to jump from buildin to buildin. Ye know. So ee'd ave these, ye know, white pumps on so he could jump. VB: [Laughs]. 070 JM: He'd do all his own STUNTS. Aye. [Laughs softly; remembering]. Things like that. VB: Cause you mentioned as well, some of the cowboy things. Tom Mix and people like that. JM: Oh, em, TOM MIX was TOM MIX. There was TOM MIX, eh, HOOT GIBSON. [Pause; 2 seconds]. An eh, just can't THINK a the other one, for the minute. But TOM MIX was THE one. There was one particular film, saw im in, where eh, it was little lad that were ill. He was in BED or somethin. An Tom ad a GUN an ee could FIRE this gun an eh, he just opened the CURTAINS or somethin. An then eh, he could fire it all over. An do DIFFERENT THINGS. VB: [Laughs]. 080 JM: I just about REMEMBER that one like, you know. Aye. So, like a REMOTE CONTROL now, on television! [Laughs]. VB: Ah. Sounds amazing actually. [Amused voice]. JM: Aye. A don't know what film were called but we saw THAT MANY a Tom Mix. VB: Yes. Was that in the serials then? Saturday. JM: Yeah. VB: Yeah. 082 JM: An then the eh, then we ad the DOG. RIN TIN TIN. VB: Right. JM: Aw! We ad RIN TIN TIN an all. Oh yeah. That could SPEAK A think. That's the only thing he DID do [amused voice] is SPEAK! Ah. You sat GLUED, watchin it. Watchin RIN TIN TIN. VB: Did you look forward to the next week? 086 JM: Oh, these were more or less FULL films. VB: Oh right. A see. JM: These were full films were RIN TIN TIN an that. VB: Right. JM: All the others were the SERIALS. Oh my goodness. You AD to go an see them. Always finished with somebody fallin off a cliff. An then, 'Continued next week.' When you went next week, they didn't manage to fall of the cliff, they just STOPPED. But the week before, they FELL OFF! [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. 090 JM: You know. Somethin like that. Aye. That's where they ad the eh, [pause; 2 seconds], the FLASH GORDON. THAT was a serial that one. FLASH GORDON. We all LAUGHED at that. They ad eh, all these things what we've got now. They were SHOWIN em in these films. Like the TELEPHONES now what we ave, we were, we could talk to one another by telephone. They ad em in these FILMS. You know, an eh, they've come. VB: Yeah. JM: You know. Aye. Ah, everythin that was in. Aye. SCI FI or whatever they call it in them days. Aye, there ere. VB: Did you like that sort of picture? 098 JM: Oh, yeah! [Enthusiastic response]. Yeah. Yeah. Aye, ye went to see that every week. VB: Yeah. JM: Course that came at a time where eh, money was a little bit BETTER like. So you could manage to go in the higher up an go an see that an all, once a week. VB: Right. Were there any films that you didn't like much when you were a young lad? JM: Well somebody'd tell ye, 'That's not so good,' so, you didn't GO. VB: Right. JM: You know. Oh you didn't waste yer money on THEM. VB: Yeah. 104 JM: That was the thing with the eh, [pause; 3 seconds], before the THEATRE went over to FILM. It was VARIETY. They used to say Monday night was THE night, because people waitin for the second show'd meet them comin out for the FIRST show an they'd say, 'RUBBISH!' So they wouldn't go. That KILLED it. VB: Right. JM: That more or less KILLED it for the week kind a thing, you know. VB: Yeah. JM: And eh, it all depends on the FIRST show. Whether it really appened like, you know. Aye. 'Rubbish.' [Laughs]. 111 VB: That's interesting. So you paid attention to what other people said about them. JM: Oh yeah. Yeah. VB: Yeah. JM: A remember ONE film. But we couldn't go in. It was eh, [pause; 2 seconds], eh, A don't know ow it would go down now. A don't even know what it were about. It was at the EMPIRE, at the bottom. An it was LADIES one day, and MEN another day. Don't know what film were about but it were called THE BIRTH OF A NATION. Now, A shouldn't think it would by anythin like the films they show now. THE BIRTH OF A NATION. [Laughs]. But, they couldn't go in together then. We used to stand across the road. You know, there'd be about eight or nine, watchin them all goin in. Used to hear [pause; 1 second]. 'Ooh! She fainted!' 'Yeah, oh yeah. She fainted.' Ooh, an they couldn't STAND it. Oh, an they had to come out. A don't know what film were about [amused voice], but, it were the one of the CENTURY A think. Ah. BIRTH OF A NATION. MEN only, WOMEN only. Aye. [Pause; 3 seconds]. 124 VB: Were there any films that you remember causing as big a stir as that? Or, ones that you liked particularly? JM: No, A can't eh, A can't think there was anythin. Not like, ye mean, today, where they say like, this film? No, A can't remember anythin. Course, they weren't allowed to MAKE films of eh, ye know. At the moment it's what they can't an what they CAN show, but in THEM days, A mean for somebody to kiss on screen, they more or less say, 'Oh my goodness!' [Shocked voice]. 'What's goin on ere?' You know. Aye. Nobody'd go in for a week! [Laughs]. VB: Yeah. JM: Ah. VERY strict. [Pause; 2 seconds]. VB: Were there any of the stars that were thought to be a bit sort of em, A don't know. When you say like the ones that were doing these screen kisses. Were there any of the stars that were thought to be a bit too much? JM: No, A don't think so. Eh, VB: The reason I'm asking is that, I've heard people in Glasgow saying that some of the stars like Jean Harlow were thought to be a bit sort of fast. 137 JM: Oh, yeah! Not eh, VB: Don't know if that's right. JM: Well, maybe like MAE WEST with er, er eh, her FIGURE an everythin an eh, 'Come up an see me some time,' like. You know, that eh, somethin like that. Or Gina, JANE RUSSELL in THE OUTLAW. Eh, she ad the low eh, the LOW frock. And the BUST. Oh-h! Everybody ad to go an see THAT. Course, this was FORCES like. 'Ooh! Ye want to see that film there.' So, everybody ad to go to see THE OUTLAW. Ah. To see Jane Russell. Ah. That was about the most DARIN one that's ever BEEN A think. [Laughs]. VB: Aye. 146 JM: But now, A don't know now. VB: It's something else A think. JM: The TELEVISION'S bad enough! [Laughs]. Never MIND films! [Laughs]. VB: Yeah. JM: ANYTHIN goes. Anythin. Aye. VB: Cause A brought along one or two things that Ah've come across since Ah've been in town. A don't know if you ever went, did you ever go into Manchester, the cinema? 152 JM: The only time A went into Manchester, [pause; 2 seconds], was to see eh, GONE WI THE WIND. An we went in on Saturday. It was holiday time. A think it must've been AUGUST. Or it could've been early SEPTEMBER. An eh, as we were walkin through Deansgate, there were big buildins. This was, [pause; 3 seconds], 19 [pause; 2 seconds]. Must a been 1940. Aye, 1940. I just remarked to my mate. A said, 'Now, A wouldn't like to be here, if there's air raid.' He says, 'No, I wouldn't, with these big buildins.' So, we goes an sits in to watch GONE WI THE WIND. An it was FOUR HOUR film. An it was in cinema called THE GAIETY. An it was downstairs. You went DOWN to it. An it got to within 10 minutes of the film finishin, an air raid sirens. Said, '[J?]. We're in TROUBLE ere.' Ee says, 'Aye!' A said, 'Ope nothin appens!' [Laughs]. An that were the FIRST air road, on Manchester. The SIRENS. But as luck appened, there were no raid. So, we were STUCK in there till 12 o'clock. VB: Really? 170 JM: All the TRAINS. The trains still ran an, VB: Yeah. JM: You know, to get you ome. An the buses an things. But eh, that was our, the only time Ah've been to a cinema in Manchester. A never went again! [Bursts out laughing]. VB: You were right [laughs] A think. Ah dear. JM: About 10 minutes before the finish. VB: Cause A found, you just reminded me, when you were talking about Anna Neagle opening the cinema. Eh, this is one where Robert Donat opened one of the cinemas in Manchester. Was he a popular star? 175 JM: Donat. Yeah, he was good. VB: Yeah. JM: Aye, he was good. Robert Donat [quiet voice], yeah. Yeah. [Pause; 3 seconds]. VB: Cause A think he was from Manchester. Ah've heard he was from Manchester. JM: A THINK he was. VB: Yeah. 179 JM: An eh, [pause; 1 second], ah, THE THIRTY NINE STEPS. See they ad that MANY at that TIME. They were [pause; 3 seconds]. We'd GOOD actors, ye know, like MILLS an eh, JIMMY STEWART. An all them, but eh, we ad to wait. If they made a CLASSIC, it was a CLASSIC. But otherwise, eh, they made a lot a TRIPE in between. But the CLASSICS were eh, no, nothin to beat them. Same as that. THE THIRTY NINE STEPS. VB: Ah, it's wonderful, isn't it? JM: Things like THAT. VB: Yeah. JM: Eh, A just can't bring to mind but. Whatever they made in eh, eh, [pause; 2 seconds], in that LINE. It'd STILL go down NOW. An people'd be GLUED to the eh, glued to the SCREEN. VB: Yeah. 190 JM: They COULD make em. All the WARTIME ones, they were eh, very PATRIOTIC like. [Pause; 2 seconds]. We always remember the eh, the AMERICANS that were eh, when the PEARL HARBOUR came up, [pause; 3 seconds], we always knew, if ever we saw a film, an American film, what were goin on an it was, VB: [Laughs]. 196 JM: We'd all waited an they'd all say, 'Here it comes. REMEMBER Pearl Harbour.' VB: Cause A mean that, on the other side of that is one of the Gracie Field ones A think maybe. JM: Oh [chuckles]. VB: Was she popular? JM: Oh! [Enthusiastic response]. EVERYBODY wanted to see GRACIE. VB: [Laughs]. 201 JM: I eard it the other night an I say, 'We didn't go watchin that, did we?' [Amazed voice]. Listenin to that right TINNY sound like, what they ad in them days. Yeah, Gracie. ROCHDALE Gracie. Yeah. Aye. I eard er one night on the eh, A was IN Scotland then. Everywhere A went A went to SCOTLAND. VB: [Laughs]. JM: Or up that road. Joined up an went up to Stranraer. Eh, A got posted abroad. A went up to Glasgow to sail down the Clyde. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Got transferred to the army, A got sent up to Stranraer to go across to Ireland. Things like that. VB: Thanks. [To Mrs M?; door closes]. 211 JM: A was in Scotland when A eard er. VB: Ah! JM: She was givin a concert on the eh, when it was on the RADIO. Gracie. Somethin like Vera Lynn did last night. For the troops. VB: Yeah. JM: You know. An she were singin. Yeah. VB: That's interesting. A came across some things from Bolton as well. People like Deanna Durbin. Was she, JM: DEANNA DURBIN. That was another very, very popular one. VB: Yeah. 217 JM: Everybody went to see eh, everybody went to see er. Oh yeah. [Pause; 2 seconds]. Aye. They were very MUSICAL the people, them days. VB: Yeah. JM: They enjoyed their eh, it'd CHEER em up a lot A think. Workin in the MILLS an all sorts. Ah. She were BRILLIANT. Yeah. Yeah. [Pause; 2 seconds]. You got the BACKGROUND MUSIC an all with all these, ye know. The big ORCHESTRAS an all the rest of it like. Money no expense wi the backin. VB: Yeah. 224 JM: It were MARVELLOUS where they came from like. You know, it'd appen in a little cinema it's supposed to be, next thing it'd be a BIG stage with a thousand musicians behind or somethin like that. Fred Astaire dancin somewhere. Like a little cafe. Fred's finished, he'd be on a big STAGE [laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. JM: Still, you ad to think a them or you'd spoil the story, wouldn't you? VB: Mm. JM: You would spoil the story. 231 VB: Cause you mentioned Fred and Ginger there. JM: Oh! They were eh, oh. Well, [pause; 2 seconds], as A say we ad the Bury Palais. It was a cinema but a palais. Well, after you'd watched Fred Astaire an Ginger, ye wanted to go to't palais an you thought you could do eh, you could TWIRL about. You couldn't. [Laughs]. VB: Aye. JM: Na, you couldn't. No. VB: Cause when you think of these scenes like, films like TOP HAT. JM: Yeah. Well, Ah've ANOTHER daughter. She's eh, she's about thirtieish. An she waits for em to come on. On TV ere. 'Fred ASTAIRE'S on this week!' Ah. Aye. It just shows. A THINK the young ones like my lad an that, would sooner watch some a these old FILMS than the modern ones. Eh, it's not the same thrill to us cause we've already SEEN em kind a thing. In fact, we've nearly ACTED in em! [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. 247 JM: We've seen that MUCH, we could've ACTED in the film. Eh, but eh, they really enjoy the old eh, aye, Astaire and eh, Laurel and Hardy. All sorts. They really ENJOY it. [Pause; 3 seconds]. But when you've, as A say, when you've LIVED in the cinema. You know. [Someone comes into house]. This sounds like the daughter-in-law. Hallo. [Person says to JM: Have ye won?]. Have ye won? Course Ah've won! VB: [Laughs]. Other person: Why don't you win when you put MY crosses on? JM: [Laughs]. Other person: Bye. JM: Cheers! [Laughs]. They're off for a couple of hours now. VB: Ah. 263 JM: They go to a discount store at Farnworth. VB: Oh right. JM: And eh, the store where they go to, an this Co-op ere, down ere, they could be as much as eh, 40p on some articles. VB: Really. Yeah. JM: Or 50. An it's a lot a money. 266 VB: It is. Yes. Mounts up. JM: Terrible. VB: Yeah. JM: Mm. So they get the car out. She had an unfortunate thing. She's only [pause; 2 seconds], 20. Not that old. Don't think she's 30, I'm not sure. VB: Mm. JM: There's that MANY of em, A don't know what. VB: [Laughs]. JM: An eh, she ad to lose an eye. VB: Oh dear. 272 JM: Mm. Cancerous eye or somethin. Yeah. Anyway, we got shot a them two. [Amused voice]. VB: [Laughs]. How many, cause you said you had seven in your family. JM: Seven! Yeah. VB: How many boys and girls is it? JM: Four girls an wife an daughter, Ah'll murder er! [Moves away]. She found this photo the other day. Found this photo. An it is one thing they'll hate. Just seeing theirselves. They were all young. VB: Aw! [Laughs]. JM: One daughter said, 'Rip that thing up!' [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. That's lovely. It really is a nice one that actually. JM: Ah'll just show you ONE wedding photo. VB: Yeah. 284 JM: Ah'll bring it in for ye. Make a change from em, [laughs]. VB: Yes. [Laughs]. [Pause; 10 seconds] JM: This is one of the only few occasions we could ever get them all together. VB: Oh, that's lovely. 292 JM: That's took just across the eh, just across the way, back a the houses there. In the park. VB: Yeah. JM: Aye. Said, 'We'll ave a change,' ee said. 'Instead of outside church,' ee said. An we all TRUDGED down to the park, down there. VB: Yeah. That's great. So, is that one of your daughters or your son? JM: They're ALL daughters and sons. VB: The one that's getting married? 298 JM: This is eh, [pause; 2 seconds], that's a son, that's a son, that's a son. VB: Yeah. JM: Eh, that's a daughter. VB: Yeah. JM: That's a daughter. That's a daughter. An that's the daughter. VB: Right. Yeah A was thinking it must be your daughter. A can see the likeness. 304 JM: That's one son-in-law, two son-in-laws. Ee's still around us. VB: Right. JM: So, [pause; 2 seconds]. Now they're ALL married bar Jim the big un. VB: Yeah. JM: We can't get im married [amused voice]! VB: [Laughs]. 308 JM: [Laughs]. All the others are married. VB: Yeah. JM: Now, on't top a that now, we got 10 grand-children. VB: 10! JM: So A said, 'A don't mind them comin, but they bring their mothers an fathers an all!' [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. Ah. They're a nice looking family though. 314 JM: They come every Sunday mornin about [pause; 3 seconds], two or three daughters an a son-in-law an the youngsters come Sunday mornin. VB: Yeah. JM: An, as you walked in, 'Are you avin a coffee?' Well, mother's runnin backwards an forwards to make coffee. VB: [Laughs]. JM: Coffee for em all. It finishes up with about 16 cups an glasses to wash. VB: Aw, A can imagine, yes. 321 JM: The young ones ave eh, dandelion and burdock, with ice cream on't top. VB: [Laughs]. JM: They're big enough to make their own now, so. VB: Right. JM: But they don't wash the pots! [Laughs]. VB: Right. [Laughs]. JM: Yeah. They're all, aye. Aye, they're all there. VB: A can see the resemblance too. Some of them look like you an some are like your wife. [Laughs]. Quite a, you know, two different camps A think! [Laughs]. 330 JM: Aye, Ah've had a few weddings. Six weddings. VB: Yeah. JM: Weddings. Christenings. One's got to 18 now so we might be startin again, on weddings again. VB: Yeah. JM: One a't grand lads, GRAND SONS, is playin for eh, ee's in the, one a teams for Lancashire. VB: Oh really! JM: Cricket club. Yeah. VB: Yeah. JM: Yeah. Enjoys is cricket. VB: Yeah. 337 JM: They're ALL sportin like, ye know. VB: Yeah. Do you enjoy sport yourself? JM: Just football. VB: Football, yeah. JM: Just the ordinary amateur football. VB: Yeah. Did you play when you were a boy? When you were a lad, did you play? 340 JM: What? VB: When you were younger. When you were growing up, did you play football? JM: Yeah! VB: Yeah. JM: Yeah. A played right up to about 27 year old. VB: Yeah. JM: In the FORCES an all sorts. That got you out of quite a bit of eh, a few guards or somethin like that, if you played football. VB: Ah, I see. [Laughs]. JM: You ad to ave some sport. VB: Yeah. [Pause; 3 seconds]. JM: Aye. Watch the basketball on there I think, what were I playin basketball for at five foot five an a quarter! VB: [Laughs]. JM: When you got 25 foot! VB: Aw! JM: [Laughs]. [Pause; 3 seconds]. Now I used to enjoy the eh, that's all we ad. Apart from PICTURES, football all Saturday afternoon. VB: Yeah. JM: You couldn't play it SUNDAY. VB: Right. 357 JM: Oh no, you couldn't play. No sport at Sunday. All parks were shut an everythin. Good grief. We used to sneak a game like. We'd find a little PITCH somewhere. VB: [Laughs]. JM: You know, wi little ball. We didn't ave a big football. An we could ave a kick about somewhere like. VB: Right. [Laughs]. Aye. [Pause; 3 seconds]. JM: Aye. VB: Did you go to watch football? JM: Oh, I watched Bury. VB: Right. JM: We went to Bury one week, an Bolton another. VB: Right. JM: Now eh, [pause; 3 seconds], we never got big crowds ere. Eh, biggest crowds we ad were, maybe 15 thousand. But when we went to Bolton you'd get 55 thousand. VB: Oh. Yes. JM: But we saw all the first class teams there. But we always say eh, 'We only went to see Bolton get beat!' [Laughs]. VB: [Laughs]. 378 JM: Where you've just come from now, the interchange. VB: Yeah. JM: Eh, ye'd notice the [guard?] in there. VB: Oh yes. Yes. JM: Well, the QUEUE there. The bus used to set off. The Bolton bus from outside the pub across the way. An the queue would be RIGHT round. [Tape cuts out; end of recording]. End of Side B